LORI: Let's talk about steak (even though I never eat it) A quote from the article: "Foods considered more or less deadly under the low-fat dogma turn out to be comparatively benign if you actually look at their fat content. More than two-thirds of the fat in a porterhouse steak, for instance, will definitively improve your cholesterol profile (at least in comparison with the baked potato next to it); it's true that the remainder will raise your L.D.L., the bad stuff, but it will also boost your H.D.L." What is your advice on the consumption of red meat?

TOM V: Most bodybuilders love red meat - myself included. Many bodybuilders believe that red meat helps muscle growth, and I think there's a lot of truth in that statement. Red meat is high in protein, B-12, iron and creatine. The problem with most cuts of red meat is the fat content. However, not all cuts of red meat are the same.

It's a mistake to label the entire red meat category as a no-no because of high fat content. If you carefully choose the leanest cuts possible and keep your portion sizes small, red meat can be a great addition to a fat burning program.

For example, a 6 oz serving of lean, trimmed top round steak has only 9 grams of fat, while 6 oz of untrimmed porterhouse has 37 grams of fat and the 18 oz porterhouse you're often served in a steak house has over 100 grams of fat!

LORI: Why are Americans getting significantly fatter over the last 20 years? Taubes lays the blame at the door of carbohydrates. Do you agree?

TOM V: Yes and no. The real question is; what type of carbohydrates? You've gotta stop lumping all carbohydrates together in one category and saying they're "bad" or "fattening." This is the greatest injustice people like Dr. Atkins have done to the public at large. Dr. Atkins says, and I quote, "Carbohydrates are the very food that makes you fat." This is a very misleading statement. Broccoli and spinach are carbohydrates. You could eat broccoli or spinach until your face hurts from chewing so much and you'd never get fat. They're low calorie nutritional powerhouses.

Oatmeal is a carbohydrate, so are yams, brown rice, beans and barley. And so are fruits like apples, peaches and grapefruits. Balanced properly with lean proteins and with a calorie deficit, these carbs are great foods for fat loss.

The "bad" or "fattening" carbs are the refined ones; your white flour and white sugar products like white bread, sugar sweetened cereals, candy and soda pop. A breakfast of Special K, fat free milk, toast and orange juice is not the same diet as a breakfast of old fashioned oatmeal and a one whole egg, six egg white, pepper, tomato and mushroom omelette.

If you want to lay the blame at the door of sugar and refined carbohydrates, then yes I agree, but don't blame "carbohydrates" as a group for why Americans are getting fatter. You have to separate refined from processed carbohydrates. You can't just say bread makes you fat, you have to separate white bread from whole grain bread.

It's really refined foods in general that are making us fatter and unhealthier than we were ten, twenty and thirty years ago, not just refined carbs. Processed meats, fats and oils are just as bad as processed carbs - if not worse. Trans fatty acids, for example are extremely dangerous. A fat burning diet should be centered on choosing natural foods and steering away from processed foods. To say that natural carbohydrates, eaten exactly the way they come out of the ground or off the tree are fattening, is really the biggest, fattest lie of all.

There are other factors contributing to higher rates of obesity too, like the sedentary lifestyles people are leading these days. This is the age of the Internet and video games. Children are being raised on them. And of course, you have the five hours of TV most people watch every day. The television set is the greatest physique-destroying and income-reducing device ever invented.

Obesity isn't the result of one single factor, but refined carbs are a biggie. What happened in the 80's and 90's with the fat phobia craze was that books, magazines, TV and other mainstream media pounded the message into our brains that fat was bad. No distinction was made between types of fats - the message was black and white; "fat is unhealthy and fat makes you fat."

This started an entire industry of fat free foods such as cakes, cookies, candy, ice cream, yogurt, frozen dinners, lunch meats and nearly every other food you can think of. Most of us ate them without fear because we believed it was okay since the label said "FAT FREE!"

Even though fat consumption dropped over the past two decades, a very strange thing happened: The incidence of obesity and health problems kept going up through the 80's into the 90's and it still hasn't stopped.

According to the National Center for Health Statistics, there was a 61% increase in obesity between 1991 and 2000! Today, there are more overweight people than ever before - 100 million in the United States alone, to be exact! Heart disease, diabetes and cancer are still three of the biggest killers and it seems there's no end in sight to these epidemics.

If everybody cut the fat out of their diets in the 80's and 90's, then how could it be that we continued to get fatter and our health deteriorated? The answer is so obvious, it's almost embarrassing:

"FAT FREE" DOESN'T MEAN SUGAR FREE OR CALORIE FREE!

What's happened over the past two decades is that many people cut out the fat, and simply replaced it with sugar - and larger portions of it too! A food can say "fat free" on the label and be 100% sugar! If you eat a lot of sugar or if you eat more calories than you burn, it doesn't matter how little dietary fat you eat - you're still going to gain body fat!

Saturated and processed fats are bad, but in my opinion, sugar and processed carbohydrates are more responsible for disease and obesity in our society today than any other single factor. Replacing fat with sugar is going from the frying pan into the fire.

It's only when you're eating a mildly calorie restricted diet that's low in refined sugar and low in the bad fats, combined with aerobic exercise and weight training, that your body fat will finally begin to drop.

LORI B: Finally, tell us with what you agree most in the article and what is your biggest disagreement with the article.

TOM V: I agree that not all fats are bad. You can't lump all fats into the same category any more than you can lump all carbohydrates together. For example, the fat found in salmon is one of the healthiest things you could ever eat. But most people are scared of all fat, when they could benefit greatly from eating good fats in small amounts.

I disagree that a high fat diet is the best way to get lean. I agree that a ketogenic diet can be effective, especially for someone who is a "difficult case" and is very carbohydrate sensitive or insulin resistant, but I also think it's a temporary solution at best for people who can't exercise and it's a bad way for athletes or bodybuilders. It doesn't fuel high intensity weight training workouts and it's not as thermic as a diet lower in fat with more protein and moderate carbs.

I disagree that the Atkins diet or any ketogenic diet is a lifestyle program. Butter, ground beef, bacon cheeseburgers, whole milk, cream, pork and oils being your primary source of calories is no way to eat for life.

I disagree with the statement that you can eat all you want on the Atkins diet. Dr. Atkins says his diet "sets no limit on the amount of food you can eat." This is a flat out lie. You always have to be aware of calories. What happens when you go on ketogenic high fat diets is that your appetite is diminished and you feel more full because fat digests more slowly and is more satiating than carbs or protein. The result is that you eat fewer calories without thinking about it. No diet or special combination of foods can override the law of calorie balance.

Here's the bottom line in all this: It's not carbohydrates that make you fat, nor is it fats that make you fat. Refined foods, too many calories and not enough exercise are what make you fat!

LORI: One last thing, Tom. You recently released a new book about fat loss that goes into great detail about the pros and cons of low carb diets and actually offers three different dietary approaches with different amounts of carbs depending on one's body type and goal. How is your program different from other fat loss diets?

TOM V: I believe in modeling successful people. Forget about all the research and scientific studies because they almost always contradict each other and research scientists - with few exceptions - usually aren't the best built people around.

Instead, look at real world results. If you want to learn a skill or achieve a specific result, the fastest and easiest way to do it is to find someone who has already done what you want to do, find out how they did it, do what they did, and you will produce the same result. Don't complicate matters - it really is that simple.

There's no one in the world better at losing fat while maintaining muscle than competitive natural bodybuilders. So if you want to learn the absolute best and fastest way to get lean, you should model the natural bodybuilders.

Most bodybuilders do NOT use high fat, ketogenic diets. Some do, but most don't. Most dabble with these types of diets and then discover that there are too many side effects and disadvantages to this approach.

My new book, BURN THE FAT FEED THE MUSCLE (BFFM), acknowledges that there's a middle ground between the high carb/low fat camp and the low carb/high fat camp. It's this middle ground that makes the most sense and gets you the best long term results.

BFFM is based on moderate to high protein, moderate carbs and low fat - with just the right amounts of the healthy, good fats. The exact amounts of each macronutrient depend on your goals and your body type.

The foundation of the program is based on real foods - not shakes, bars or other supplements and it's based on natural foods you can get at your local supermarket. You could say my program is a natural approach to fat loss: no drugs, no supplements and no unnatural or gimmicky diets.

It's also combined with a weight training and cardio program, because dieting without exercise is never effective in the long run.

Here's the website address where you can get more information on the BFFM program:

http://www.fitren.com/resudoc.cfm?doc=fatburn

LORI: Thank you Tom

TOM V: My pleasure - I enjoyed it - we'll have to start doing these interviews every year!